Working Towards Our Purpose

Welcome to Working Towards Our Purpose, a podcast that

offers a different perspective on what a job can be. For everyone

out there that's heard that voice in the back of their head asking for something

more, it's time to listen to it. I'm your host, Gino,

and join me as I interview people who have decided to work in their own

purpose. Together, we will learn, become inspired,

and hopefully find our own path towards working in our purpose.

Joe George is a songwriter, producer, Emmy nominated film

composer, and he has 2 full length solo albums out. His 3rd on

the way, folk cinema. He He also plays in a band called Intuit

Over It where I found him, and I'm looking forward to getting to know him

a little bit more today. Joe George, thanks for coming on working towards our purpose.

How are you doing today? I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me on.

It's good to be here. Yeah. Of course. Of course. So, yeah, why don't we

start with, you telling me a little bit about, like, your growing

up and, like, maybe what you wanted to be as a kid and any

schooling or anything like that? Yeah. I haven't

quite grown up yet. But Nice. So,

yeah, I grew up, I grew up in Central Illinois,

Peoria. And the music was always

in the house. Records were always playing. Mom

was always playing music when she was cooking

dinner in in the kitchen, and and, we would often

sing along. And and I come from a big family and all of our aunts

and uncles and cousins and everybody. Music was something that we all

shared in pretty, pretty intensely at points. Like, like,

full on family gathering. Like like

it sounds ridiculous, but that is true. Like like like like, arm

and arm singing along, like locked arms, like singing songs.

So, you know, music was just part of the deal. Like, you had to, you

know, to some degree, be be a performer. But I

knew at a very young age, I wanted to play the guitar, got a guitar

from from Santa Claus at a at a young age,

and just was completely obsessed to play it every day.

And so that was, let's see, maybe, like, 10 or 11 years old.

And then a few years later, it was I I

started, playing out in cafes, coffee shops, and stuff

around town when I was, like 12, 13.

And I was always trying to, like, write my own music as

well. So I was I was playing those songs or little

guitar pieces and stuff. I very quickly realized

the desire to to do

it for a living, I guess, or do it for a

you you know, I remember first having the thought of, like, is

this a thing that I could do, you know,

for, you know, my life. I don't I don't even know if I was

old enough to think of it as a living like, making a living, but, like,

is it something that I could actually just, like, do forever and have that be

what I, you know, how I contribute? So,

yeah, playing nonstop through as a teenager, like, nonstop

at bars and taverns around town and stuff. And and then went to

college, studied studied music more intensely.

And, Yeah. And and so that's kinda like the

the growing years of of of being excited

every day, coming home from school, going straight to the guitar all the

way through, like, that being the the main

driver of of, like, what I what I was whatever, you

know, called to do or or or the thing that I felt like I

was here to do. So, yeah, it happened

early. And, you know, I played it every day since. That that since that's

gone more so beyond just guitar playing and just music in

general, but but I still do play a whole whole lot of

guitar. Nice. Thanks for thanks for sharing all that. Do you do

you have, like, a a first music memory or, like,

maybe a first time you, like, remembered you

wanting to do this forever? Was it, like, a significant thing, or was it just

like a it was always present? Yeah.

The first time so my brother and I are

very close in age, so we grew up, you know, just right

next to each other the whole way. So we we discovered a lot of music

together, like, in the same moments, really.

We we went to the

CD store, which is where we we weren't supposed to go

to just because it was across the the busy the busy street at the end

of the neighborhood. So, like, you know, we the rule for us, you know,

and and safely so, what was was that we could go anywhere in

the neighborhood, ride our bikes, run around, climb any tree, but but we couldn't

cross the the avenue that was where cars are driving 40

or 50 miles an hour. But that's where the CD store

was. So we, you know, we played it safe. We made sure there was no

cars coming. We we were we were, you know, but then we jetted across that

road, and we bought 2 CDs. And so

it was kinda like my brother got Help by the Beatles, and I got A

Hard Day's Night by the Beatles. And we brought those CDs home.

We ripped that plastic off of them, and, and and

we listened to help first. Unbelievable

moment. I mean, just crazy explosions

in the brain of of, like, wow. And then we listened to hard

days night equally just insane.

But it was on help when I've just seen a

face, hit. And that is, I think

oh, man. Track 8, maybe,

on help. And, that's when I heard that

song, I I was, like, I was blown away. And and and that's the first

time that I remember thinking, wow. Somebody's

playing that. Like, somebody's like, that that guitar intro.

Somebody somebody they're they're playing that. It's either it's either George

Harrison or Paul McCartney probably, and they're laying it, like,

into a microphone, and I'm hearing it. You know? And it was like and it

blew me away. Ran into mom and dad's room, asked them for a guitar.

It was past my bedtime. They told me to go to bed. But that that

year, you know, they they got me the guitar as, you know, from

Santa Claus. And, it was and it

was on. It was just so on. So that was the first time that I

thought, like, wow. Somebody playing the guitar way

back then that I'm hearing now. And, so, yeah, that was the

that was that was the moment. Mhmm. Nice. That's that's

it's funny how, like, certain moments are, like, burned into your brain. And I

figured that maybe you had a similar one about your first music experience.

Yeah. I'm gonna try it in there for sure. So yeah.

So, you said you're playing, like, coffee shops and stuff throughout being a

teenager in bars. What did music work

look like for you, like, after college? Because I think that's probably, like,

most people's first, like, interpretation of, like, doing music for a living is,

like, well, how do you make money at? What do you do? Where do you

go from there? So, yeah, just kinda maybe tell me about, like, what it

looked like for you. Yeah. After college, moved

here to Chicago where I still am. And it was,

there's a lot of gigging. And I

thankfully, I was I was in a spot from a young

age to to to do solo gigs. You know, I I could just

play for 3 or 4 hour gigs

singing songs and, you know and so when I moved to

Chicago, it was gig. I would ride my bike around

and and just, like, get

get I would ask each bar owners, managers, restaurant

owner. I mean, I would just take a gig anywhere. And so for a

couple years there, it was like playing 5

to 7 or 8 times a week, and some of them were regular. You

know, it was, like, Wednesday night was a standing gig at this spot. Thursday night

was at this spot. Monday night was at this spot. There would be, like, a

Sunday. You know, in the nicer months, it would be a Sunday

afternoon at a at a farmer's market and then Sunday night at somewhere

else, and it was just nonstop. And so I was just

going around just singing songs, like, nonstop. And at the time, I was in

a band. I was in, like, a a hard rock band too. And so we

would we would play more like proper shows

at, you know, Dumbledore RIP or

Subtronion or the Beat Kitchen or Empty Bottle or Metro

or whatever. And, but, like, the gigging

thing, you know, I separated those worlds a little bit in my brain. It it

was like there's, like, there's a show and there was a gig. And the gig

was like that was like the work. That was like the

you are continuing to to hone. You're

you're continuing to, like, I don't know, just just,

be on the constant, to to use the most

overused word ever, grind, of of,

like, you know, just keep at it, stay at it every every day or every

few days. You know, try to, like, be playing and, like, in front of people

and be performing and be meeting people and stuff. And so, yeah, that

was going on at the time too. It was early early

on in, like, film composing for me, but but a

couple jobs here and there composing for film or episodes

of some TV shows or or films or or,

online, random random kind of stuff, which I had always wanted

to do. And so that time, I was really trying to, like, take

jobs like that as well and get that side of things going.

So, yeah, it was just like, man, those were fun days and very,

kind of like I don't know. They they were very free days,

those those first few years in Chicago. Like, just like

that that feeling when you're early twenties and just like,

you feel like tiny in a big city and it's like, yeah, I don't

know. You know that feeling of just like, oh, man, I there's so much

opportunity. Oh, I could I could do I can do so much, you know, or

and those were I I have fond memories of those of of those

years. Yeah. That's

interesting. It was almost like you're putting in your quote, unquote, 10000 hours

to, like, play and, you know, to be that's what they say. You need to

be an expert, I guess, whatever that means. Cool.

But it it's interesting that you bring up, like, the the early twenties

energy. It's something that I've been thinking a lot about recently because I

interview people who have had different paths than me. And

for me, I went from high school, like, directly to college,

directly to working, and I don't

like to be regretful, but I kind of think, like, I had so much energy

in that time period, but I was so constrained by, like, the work

that I had to be at 40 hours a week. And I, like,

think about, like, what I maybe could have done, I guess,

but also thinking about it in a way of, like, okay. Well, that

that could be something different now. Like, it doesn't only have to be in that

time period of your life. It could also happen now or in

5 years from now, and it doesn't have to be like, oh,

that's gone, and it's too late. Like, you can always kinda

change whatever happened, and and I'm sure that that period of my

life happened for a reason. But, yeah, it's it's interesting, like, how wide open

you are when you're, like, young like that and, like, how many different things you

can do. And how I looked at that part of my life was I needed

to just go do this, get this job, and it's not

necessarily true. That's a really I mean, that's a healthy that's a

healthy mindset to to to say and to realize

rather to, like, that that doesn't have to just be some time period. That's that's

a that's a that's a that's a mindset that we can that we can embrace.

So that's that's great. And I try to as well. You know?

Yeah. Like I said, I haven't grown up fully yet like that. Yeah. And I

think that's good. I I don't wanna grow up either.

Don't think it's fully necessary. So yeah. So you you were getting

into, like, film scoring and your new album, folks, and then what like,

there's a lot of imagery around, like, mixing movies and music. Tell me

about, like, blending those two worlds and what intrigued you about both of

them. Yeah. Oh, man. I mean, film

music has always been, like, so

powerful. And again, me and my brother, like, we, we, we watched a

lot of movies, like, growing up and it was like, we would try to get

all kinds of different movies to watch. And, you know, in that

time too, in the nineties, when, you know, you had to, like, get a hard

copy, get a VHS or, or then a DVD or whatever, but like

that feeling of getting movie, whether you're renting it or borrowing it or

whatever, and the movies we weren't supposed to watch, you know, the rated r movies.

It was like you know, or the horror movies And that we had to, you

know, that we had to sneak. You know? It's like, oh, well, we got, you

know, you know, whatever. True Lies with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Oh, I

completely get it open. We would also comment on the

the music often. We would we we, you know, we would like recognize the

music in in films. I feel like at a pretty young age, and and

that was always something that was, like, that we loved about

the the movies. You know, we'd watch Indiana Jones, and then we'd

run around the house singing that theme, you know, just like it's

such you know, it's it's it's it's such a powerful thing and did

something did something to me at a at a young age. So

when I went to school to study music, I I I knew

that film composing was was gonna be part of the thing.

Like, you know, guitar playing was, like, kind of the main thing, and it

was something that I wanted to get more Just

I I wanted to study more because I I as a kid, I never really

studied it. I just I just learned learned how to play and and

you know? But then, you know, so I wanted to really sink into that and

study the instrument and the theory and everything. And then I also wanted to study

film composition. And studying film composition was,

again, just a mind blowing experience. And doing that starting to do that for the

first time was a yeah. It was just, I

mean, an immediate obsession that I could do that, that I could look at a

picture and write something and get

feedback on it and say, yeah. This character is going through this, and what

they mean is this. And and what is that? How does that

translate to a sound or to a melody or to a the

the right chord or something? Still obsessed with it. Even just talking about it right

now, just like that's the best. And so

it's a tricky thing trying to get work in that

realm because, you know, doing a gig, it's like you can go and like,

hey. Hey. Listen. I can I can sing a song and I can, you know,

you know, can I play in your bar? It's like, oh, yeah. Cool. You're you're,

you know, yeah. You're you're good enough, and I'll pay you $10 and you can

come in the corner and sing songs. I mean, film

work is, like, that's that's a bit trickier. So it was like, how how do

how do you break into that? How do you do that? And it's just like

like a lot of other things, probably in like in a lot of other industries

too. It's just meeting people, presenting yourself in a way, you

know, talking to a director and saying, like, I can, you know, I

can write music for your characters. I I can I can do that, you

know? And and then from there, it was taking a lot of work for

free and and offering that. I don't know if

young people really think like that anymore. You know, that's that's

that's maybe a bit tricky. So I'm I'm I I don't I'm not even sure

if that's advice that that I would give, but that's what I did.

And that's the advice that was given to me. The landscape is always changing,

of course, but just getting a film, getting a

director to to send me their film and say, like, okay. Yeah. Go go for

it. That was the most exciting thing. That was just the most exciting thing. I

just watched the movie. What does it need? What can I do? What's the

best instrumentation? What's the best passion? You know? Making

money didn't even, you know, getting paid didn't even matter. It was just like, this

is gonna be this is gonna be fucking sweet.

But that what that leads to oh, okay. Cool. You accomplished

that with that film. That that was good, and and the director liked it.

And they showed it, and then somebody else saw it, and they loved the

music. And at the premiere, they came up to me and said, you did the

music for that? Yeah. Totally. Oh, I got this film you gotta do or

whatever. That that that it was simple like that,

you know, or or or it seems simple. So, yeah, that's still

going. I mean, I'm always always wanting to take

on scoring to picture work. I just love it. I love it so much. I

love I love horror music big time.

And but I I love all kind of weird, you know,

weird drama music. I love ambient music in film.

I love ambient music in film. I love ambient music in general. Love the

huge orchestral scores, and I love the quietest little single note

on a piano scores as well. It's so cool. And another

reason that it's so cool for me as a composer is that

you learn this other skill of, or I've learned

this other skill of, like, of communication. And if I

can sit here in my studio and write a scene, you know, write the music

for a scene and and and watch it and hear it and think to myself,

oh, man. This is awesome. I'm nailing this. The director

shows up to watch for the first time, and if the director

says, no. It's not working. This is all

wrong. It doesn't matter what I thought. It's wrong. It's

it just is. It's their vision. It's their movie. It's their character. It's

their you know? So that that kind

of skill set to embrace your own

your misses, you know, like, I I missed I missed the mark on that. I've

got to, like, scrap this and restart. And then what I do is

better, and it's a thing that needed to happen. And so

that process of feeling really great about something and having it, not in

like a mean way or anything, but in an honest way, having it be, like,

told no. It's wrong. That's a that's a

humbling and awesome, like, thing to go through.

And and and for me, I I break through to

more creativity and to more honesty, more genuine

composition that way. Yeah. I I

would imagine, you know, you mentioned, like, mindset earlier. That's also,

like, a way of interpreting it, a mindset thing, because you could

be crushed by it and give up or be resentful.

What leads you to, like, take the positive

road instead of the negative one and be like, okay. Completely scrap that even

though I was really pumped about it and start over. Like, I imagine that's

probably a, some sort like, you gotta let yourself be

disappointed a little bit at first, I would imagine. Oh, there's somewhere in there, I

guess. Some part some part of your body has to say, like, look. But wait.

Oh, I really loved that. You know? I don't know

what it is. I think it's like I think it is,

just some kind of, like, what's the word? It's some

kind of, like, acceptance that what you're

doing, you've been doing alone in

your studio for the last, whatever it is, 2, 3 weeks, month,

whatever. And that, you know, you might be

good at what you do. Sure. Then the the scene that you scored

might sound really cool. It might be a good piece of music. It might be

a really, really good piece, you know, 3 minutes

of composition. But having it be right

for the character, which which is a whole which is which is

another multitude. There's many more layers of emotion and

backstory and things that I didn't

quite grasp yet, that the director or the

writer or or whoever's providing this feedback is understanding

fully, then there's this, like I I guess it's I guess

it's there's the you sure disappointment and, like, damn it. I missed I

missed the mark. Yeah. But then there's this excitement

of, oh, well, then these other layers that I'm about to tap into,

there's there's all this discovery waiting to happen. And that's where it's like,

okay, as a creative person, you that creative switch has just gotta

stay on, and you gotta go and dig in and find

that, which ultimately, for me, takes over

any other emotion. It just takes over the emotion of, like, ah,

shit. I I didn't do the thing right. It's like, no.

There's no time for that anymore. Just figure out what is right, and you're gonna

and and then you're gonna love it even more.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. That's that's a super

good way to think about it or healthy way to think about it, I think,

to be inspired by it instead of being, you know, dragged

down. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I did also wanna ask about your studio,

Gentle Bear Studios. Is it the studio that, like, you kind of

built because you're working on so many music projects, or is it

a place where you, like, are seeking active people to come and

record as, like, a producer or engineer? What what does the studio look

like? Yeah. Both. It is this really great space. I

guess you can kinda see nice. Yep. You know, there's a

piano back there. There's a couple pianos in here, and

there's just basically, everything I've got. This is, you

know, right here within reach. I mean, I'm reaching side to side

right now, and I got a Wurlitzer, a synth, and then another synth right

here. And then I've got a midi keyboard right here. I'm at my desk, my

workstation. There's a big TV monitor up on the wall for

film scoring. There's just guitars everywhere and

amps over on this side. And this is a space

to, yes, bring in other art I mean, producing some other artists,

and then I'm working on all of my own stuff as

well. And so this this place of

thinking and discovering, and,

I don't know if you can tell from this, but it's pretty, it's pretty,

like, low lighting. And I every morning, I come

here and pour coffee and turn on a

few lamps, and it's very quiet in here. And then I sit at

the piano and play with no

direction and with no intention other

than just to try to, like, empty out

and fill up with whatever it

whatever happens in that moment. Sometimes it leads to a full on composition.

Sometimes it doesn't lead to anything at all except for just 15

to 20 minutes of peace. And so this space is

just as much a kind of like a a zen think, a place to

think as much as it is a place to make music. And the artists

who come here, to record their stuff, they

feel that too. And when we talk about that, and we, you know,

and we have a cup of tea, and we sit, and we talk about

music, and we talk about the world, and we talk

about all all the the the crazy the the weird things

that we go through as creative people. We discuss all these human

things, and, and and we also make music. You

know, it is a music studio. We do we do chords down on

tape. But, but but there's something that is,

I wanted to set it up in a way that didn't feel like,

okay. You're in here. Here's the record button, and we're on the spot

and the hour you know, and and it's and it's our release, and we're

starting now, so let's go. I didn't wanna do that, and I

you know, growing up and being in studios like that, it was

very exciting, for sure but it was there was also this looming

kind of clock on the wall and stress about what we're

getting done what we're achieving in the whatever, in the 6 hours that

we have booked or or or something like that. And I didn't want to

I didn't wanna present that. I didn't wanna present it in that way.

If somebody feels that way, I I I I don't ultimately have

control over that, obviously, but I didn't wanna present it in that way. I wanted

to present this place as as soft, warm,

inviting, cozy, and a place to

think and explore sound. And some most of the artists that

have come to me that have come to Gentle Bear are looking

for a way to to, like,

they have, you know, a song that they're looking to really open

up and explore and change the way that they have presented it before.

And that's a really that's been a very cool process because we can

try things out. I had the studio set up in a way where every instrument

is within reach and easily inputted into the

system. It's like, if we wanna try this synth, cool. If we wanna try the

piano, if we wanna try the the whatever, everything's kinda right

here, and it's like it's one room. It's not a control room and a live

room situation. So we're in the room together. We're

performing together. We're getting ideas together, and and,

and that's the vibe. Yeah. And I was just looking

at the the website a little bit, and it definitely

presents itself as, like, a different sort of space more like you were saying, more

of a space for, like, thinking and existing

and then, like, making not, like, the opposite of how much can we

get done in a little amount of time to make you the most efficient. Yeah.

So I think that that, like, separates you from, like, other studios out there, and

I think that that's cool to have that identity and to have that,

like, come across because that's, like, a difficult thing to do, like,

as any business, I think, to, like, try to

articulate what it is you're trying to do. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

And and it's not even you know, like, another big thing was, like, to not

contend, which is which is an, something that I I try

to do or try not to do in in every

aspect of my creative life, is to not contend. It it's not

it's not in this Gentle Bear is not in competition or not

contending with other studios in Chicago. So

amazing studios in Chicago and engineers and producers who are just

masters. I mean, complete masters. And there's no I I'm

not here to contend with my music, with my room, with

my microphones, with you know, there is no

competition for me. I know a lot of people feel different differently

about that, but I I'm not in competition. Mhmm.

Yeah. I love that too. I I think that in anything that you

do, like, the competitive energy is usually

not a good thing, I would say, maybe in my experience. Because I think even

if you are doing the same thing as somebody else, like, if you succeed,

it just helps the other person also. Like, it collaboration

over competition. Like, I used to have a podcast studio, and

it was kind of the same thing of, like, at first, I was, like, afraid.

Oh, no. They're taking my clients, but it's like you do something

differently than anybody else can do it. Like, it nobody can match who you are

because you're an individual. And that, I think, is the thing to lean

on, like, when you start becoming afraid of competition

or stealing clients or something like that. Oh, I it's I totally agree with you.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah,

I wanna talk about your other projects too. So let's talk about into it over

a little bit. How how did you first get into that band? And,

you know, let's tell me about what you're doing. Yeah. Oh, man. What

Intuit Over It is is just this really great family,

and I joined the band

Valentine's Day 2020. Mhmm.

And, I've been, you know, I've been there

ever since. And we, you know, it was really cool

to to kind of jump on to a to a

minority, a very a very existing, a

very, you know, in a lot of ways, well oiled

machine, you know, something that was in motion, you

know, something that didn't need, you know,

me to to, like, you know, jump start

anything or to, like, oh, we really gotta get this going. You know?

This thing is in motion. It is you know, there are fans and

there's energy and there's originality and

constant writing creating. So I was

just kind of jumping on. And that's what it felt like at first. Like, okay,

jumping, like learning. Okay. Learning, obviously, learning the parts

and learning how to be in this family and learning how

to be in this in this room

with these with these guys, and it came

very naturally. They made it very just open for

me to be there and to be to be able to contribute in

whatever way I wanted. You know? Of course, in the early days, had,

like, you know, just feelings of, like, okay. I'm I'm I'm the new guy,

and I'm the, I don't know, a little more careful maybe

at first, a little more, like, just play the parts, you know, show up on

time, play the parts, be professional, make a

joke when it when it when there's an opening. And I and I think that

all of that was self imposed. I think that they were completely, like,

you can show you can be as wild as you want. You can be as

colorful as you want. You can be I think that that all of the

timidness that I had was was that was coming from

me. That was not put on me by them. They were just

very, like, let's do this. You know? So it was great. We

we were rehearsing, writing new stuff.

You know, this new record is about to come out. And and, this is the

first full length record that this lineup, you know, had wrote and

recorded together. So this is a really special week coming up here for me and

for and and and, you know, yeah, it's just it's just a great,

it's a great thing, and and it it definitely scratches an itch for me

to get loud and wild on stage, which is

something that I grew up doing, you know,

playing rock and roll and stuff. And then when I started

when when this kind of, like, more folk music started to spill

out of me, you know, that meant that I was going on tours with just

a guitar and, and, you know, singing just

singing songs with me and a guitar, which I love doing. I love being very

quiet on stage. I love trying to reel in a room

to be as quiet as possible. Fucking love that. But with

Intuitore, it's like this it's like the opposite. It's like turn it up

and you can run and you can jump and you can, you know, if I

could do a back flip, I'd do a back flip, you know?

So it's great. And the tours are are all awesome and people show

up and people say, you know, just

give such wonderful feedback and people pump their fists and sing the lyrics from the

crowd. You know? It's like it's it's an amazing it's an amazing thing. Evan

Evan Weiss, the the the the creator of Intuit over it,

He's created such a such an awesome

family that spans across the world. You

know, when we were just in Japan in November, it was like, oh my

goodness. You know, there's these there are these Intuit overhead heads

that are showing up and just, you know,

jumping up and down. And it's like, this is what a cool what a

cool thing to be a part of in life. It's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. And I and I like your, I guess, gratitude for the

the fans for that too. Like, that's, I think, something to always be, I

don't know, grounding. Maybe it helps you appreciate and be in the moment.

So, yeah, I like your your perspective on that a lot. So how

do you balance, like, the different parts the different musical

parts of your life? Because you said you got, like, loud into it over it.

You have your quieter solo stuff. Like, what does

even, like, writing look like or, like, time management from a

bigger perspective look like? Like, do you designate

certain days or, like, how does that work? I have no time management tricks. I'll

tell you. No. Sometimes I

do. So some weeks it's it's kinda like every week is different for me, but

but some weeks are are are really organized and and

and kind of there are certain boxes that are this

this is for this time and this is for that time and it or this

time is for this and that time for that. But, really, it is,

it's actually pretty chaotic, and I am completely driven

by, like,

creative moments. So that's

a I think that's a good thing, or it feels like a good

thing. And and and mostly it is because if it

feels that way, then then then it should be. But

what happens then, though, is sometimes if I do have a

deadline with a project or something that is, you know, like a more of a

job, more of a I'm I'm writing music for somebody else for their

thing, I have to be careful to

to really spend these 4 hours doing that.

If I open myself up to

creating, do it for to doing my own thing, I have

to in somewhere in my creative brain, I have to to come to

terms with the idea that if if I'm if I hit something right

now, I could be here for the next 6 hours and and

and turn my phone off and and and ignore everybody and

just focus on this thing. And so that's when that

happens, it's really great because that's how I've managed to complete

songs and finish records and do that. It's the driver is the

creative moment. So that's I guess

I had to kinda go into each week and sometimes each day with with

some sense of, like, okay. You you know, I I try to sit at the

piano every morning. Stay at the piano this morning is a is a

is a great example. I I had to be here with you. So it's like,

okay. I'm in here at, like, around 7, and I'm

pouring coffee, and I'm and I'm just playing some piano, and I'm not thinking, and

I'm just, you know, just playing, like I said earlier, with no

direction and no intention. And then around 10 minutes

to 8, that's like, okay. We gotta, like, you know, we wait. I got I

gotta I gotta stop that. I gotta sit here and and get ready

to to to talk. And, I I I

know some people who are so good at, like, blocking out

their calendars and and then saying, like, you know, I I I work on this

and then I work on that. And like I said, some weeks I do, and

those weeks do feel really good too when I look back on a week and

I'm like, oh, damn. Look at at that. I really, you know, I've really

carved out the time for that. I did the thing that I had to do.

I I made sure I finished that thing that I was procrastinating, and I

still I still recorded some ambient music that that'll go on the

next ambient record or whatever. You know? But I think that the

the driver is creative moments. The best days are the ones that if I

don't have a deadline and I don't have any,

like, specific jobs to finish that day. I mean,

those are the best days because I can just be here at the piano,

at a guitar, at the synth, at whatever instrument, and just

create creative motion. Sometimes that just leads to a

bunch of little snippets that I come back to to flush out. But

sometimes it leads to a full on, you know,

explosion of creativity. And, like, that's those are those

are the moments that are, like that that I kind of live for.

I I wanna ask you about, like, self criticism, a

little bit because I A little. I for me, like, I if I'm thinking

of, like, sitting and taking a whole day and, like, trying to

make music and nothing happens, then I

look at that day like, I didn't do anything. It wasn't productive.

Start criticizing myself. What do you do that?

Did did does it, like what happens if you get to the end of a

whole day that you were excited about and, like, nothing happens? Yeah.

Yeah. Those sometimes those are days are tough.

I shake those feelings pretty quickly even if I'm, like, leaving the

studio and I'm like, Jesus. What a waste of and that was. I

I and shit. I I don't

know. I shake those feelings pretty quickly. Because sometimes I re I go

back and I relisten to, like, some of the stuff, and I'm like, oh, there

Now there's a little something there. I can grab that and then make something out

of it. The self doubt, self criticism is,

is such a beast. And, it's funny you asked that. I, like,

just I just posted this thing, like, before we got on about

self doubt. I I started a TikTok and, yeah, the the

angle that I I thought for a long time about, like, what to do

starting a TikTok channel. And and and I didn't want to for a long time.

And I was like, I don't wanna just be, I don't wanna be ripping guitar

on TikTok. I don't wanna do that, and I don't wanna be talking about

pedals and gear on TikTok. I really don't. There's it's so I there's enough

people doing it. Enough people doing a really good job at it. I I I

don't, you know, I don't wanna do that. And then I landed

on the idea of, like, I I should just really try to inspire people to

to make music and and, like, finish things or,

like, not, you know, these kinds of things that we're talking about, trying to shed

the self doubt and, like, you know, finish music and and make the noise you

wanna hear. And, self doubt. I

I I do meditate on this idea that of, thinking of a

song that you love or, like, a piece of music that you really love. And

considering the the probably the fact that

the person who made the artist who made that piece of music went

through some time window of that this sucks.

You know, this is no good. I shouldn't finish this. This is garbage.

And then, like, if you hear that piece of music in your head right now,

like, have a specific piece of music maybe in your head and and and,

like, hearing it and then thinking of that artist who created

it saying that about that music. And you think like, woah. What the hell?

Come on. No. Like, this this music is amazing. How could someone actually think of

that? But there's this strange thing that we go through when we create these things.

There's these there are these peculiar microscopes that we put on

them that only only the the creator

can can look at in in in a certain

critical way. And sometimes that's that's really good self criticism. Sometimes that's

real a really good look to say, you know what? This could be better or

or that's not the right thing or or whatever. But oftentimes,

it's destructive. And so putting yourself in this

or or having realizing that that feeling is

a natural component of this process and that it's a shared feeling, in

fact, with probably some of your heroes.

That seems to lighten the burden of it a little bit and to think, oh,

okay. Well, if this is a shared feeling, if this is just some if this

is just this natural, you know, gremlin that's flying

around in all of our heads, then it's been silenced

before by by a lot of purpose. So it can be silenced

by me too, and I can just cut through and and lighten that

load and and finish this this, this single piano note

that I've been trying to get the right sound for last. Oh,

man. I love that. There there's so many things I could say to that.

Yeah. Just, like, not putting other people on pedestals and, like,

realizing that they're the same as you and yeah,

that I love all that. And then also, like, the your

TikTok, and I follow you on Instagram. I try also to stay away from social

media a lot, but there are certain accounts that, like,

are worth being there, and and I think yours is one of them. I saw

a couple of the videos that you shared and, like, one of them you were

talking about how you used the kalimba in your single that just came out, and

I was like, that's so cool. Like, I had no idea that's that was a

kalimba, and now listening to it, I'm like, oh, okay. I hear it. And, like

and and I think what it is is it's being, like, authentic, like, being

just yourself, like, not trying to be this virtuoso or, like,

all encompassing petal king. It's like it's

like you're just being a human and yourself, and I think that that's what people

connect with. So, yeah, so so so many things to talk

about, but we are kinda coming to the end of our time, and I've got

a couple questions for you left. Your album that's coming out,

want you to, like, tell tell everybody about it, talk about it. The single is

out, and it's really good. I like it a lot, and I will definitely link

it in the show notes. But, tell us what you can about the album. Oh,

yeah. The album is, it's called folk

cinema, and it's gonna be out, at the end of July. First

single was released just a couple weeks ago. First single is called Stone's

Throw, a song about being around, about wanting to be

here for for your for your friends, for your fam, the people who need

you. There's some nostalgic sense of the song and the

whole record. There is a sense of in this song,

some kind of we we we do know that our this

isn't explicitly said in the song, but we do know that our our our time

is limited here. We we have that understanding. We all do, whether we

ignore it or not. And so our time is limited. And while

we're here, I mean, there's a lyric that that says I wanna be here

before I go. And and that what that means is just while while we're

here, like, I I actually want to to be here. I wanna be around

for the people that I love, and that's,

we're all gonna be gone. We're all gonna be just gone. And,

we are here now. I I think unless this is

as far as we know or as far as I feel, like, we we are

here. There is physical reality around us, and we can we can help each other

out. We can give each other hugs, and we can, you know, we can so

on the stones, throw away if you need me. The record

itself, there is, there's a bit more of that. My wife said

it it's what I do is I write lullabies for adults. And,

and, that's, that made me laugh and that it

was like and I thought about it a few days later. I was like, damn.

Is that really what I do? But I do have some yeah. I I do

when I'm writing a song, and or when I was writing the songs in this

record, there was some sense of, like, I don't know, peace and

help and, like, simplicity,

I guess, or something. And the the the idea

of folk cinema started as a mantra

for me when I was recording. Some of these songs I recorded 2 or

3 times threw, like, threw it away completely, started over,

threw it away, and then I would land on something. Oh, there's

the there's the color. There's the character. That's the thing that

can that can make this more special. And

so I was thinking of in certain characters and in

certain lighting aspects. You know? So so the idea

of folks in a was was something that I would just try

to repeat to myself as I was approaching a song

or the sound of the piano or something like that. Folk

cinema. These songs are rooted in folk somehow, some

way. They they they are very, for the most part, quite simple. There's

not a lot of chord changes that are, oh, that's a big left turn,

or, woah, that's a really interesting, tension on a chord. There's a

little bit of that, but it's mostly, like, pretty straightforward

harmonically. So there's this folk aspect. And if I played

some of these songs alone by myself without any production, without the kalimba, without, you

know, then it could sound like just like a folk singer, you know, singing them,

and which I'm cool with. But then there's this cinema side, where it's there are

these lights and these the this framing, where it's there are these

lights and these this framing, and this

plume of light that that shines on a certain character who

is trying to translate these sounds, who's trying to

understand and communicate the idea behind these sounds

and and what it means. And if that meaning could encapsulate

and could could could put a a a hug around the

chords and the lyrics and the the harmonic content, then that's what

folk cinema is. It's this this lighting of it, this reframing,

from things that are that that have been done many times before. You know,

the c major, g major, and f major, you know,

and a in a reframing, in a new light, and, focusing on

us. So it it started as a mantra, and then and then at a certain

point, I realized, like, oh, this is probably just gonna be the title of the

record because it's it's been so so much, on

this wheel in my head that it's that now it just makes

sense to that it is the concept. It is the thing that this

collection of songs is lit under.

Yeah. That's that's really cool. I like the idea of it, like,

being simplistic almost, but then also, like, you said that kind

of new light. I think that's a interesting way to look

at a project or to describe it. I I I always

like getting, like, a artist's interpretation of, like

or ex explanation more so of, like, what they're doing because then it makes

me look at it almost in a different way too. So that that's that's

really cool and exciting, and I can't wait to hear the rest of it. Next

single is gonna is gonna be out, the middle of May, and then and then

I think we're doing a 3rd single too in June and then the full record

out at the end of the summer. So I can't wait to share the whole

thing with you. Awesome. Yeah. I can't wait to listen. But, yeah, like I said,

we're coming to the end of our time, and I got one question I gotta

ask you because I always ask everybody what purpose means to them because that it's

a big word for me, and I'm on a journey of, like, trying to find

purpose for me and, you know, a

reason as to why I'm here, as to why we're here. So I'm curious to

get your perspective on what purpose means to you. The last question,

the biggest question ever. Mhmm. Oh, man.

I think that, ultimately,

none of this may mean anything at all. None of

what we do or everything that we do could

just end up, you know, washed away at sea with

no meaning. I know that's dark, but but I'm getting somewhere.

Purpose is a tough word. So for

me, I don't want to I don't

like the feel I don't enjoy the feeling of elevating

things that I do into some kind of purpose. I do

have a purpose with it. I feel

compelled to finish that song or

to write that piece for the piano, but its

purpose is is somewhere somewhere, like,

buried within that that I that I don't know how to

speak of outwardly. There is a purpose. I I I

walk to the studio here and I walk in here with with

purpose, but it is contained. It's not

it's not a purpose that I that I that I would

burden anyone else with. Maybe that's not the right way to

say it. It's not it's not a purpose that I feel is it's

not important. It's not important. What I what I do is not important.

It it it is I do feel a purpose with it, but, ultimately, it is

some creative expression to conjure up

some feeling and some nostalgia and some emotion

among other human beings if they so choose to open up

to to experience those things. Is that still,

at the end of the day, a purpose? I don't know. It's a feeling and

it is passing. It's like it's passing me right by. And so

it's I, I try to capture these

things as they pass, but they are all passing. So

so purpose is is tough. No. That's very

interesting, and it's so interesting to me the way that, like,

for me, things fall in place because I just did an interview last night, and

it was a similar question. And most times I get people to answer it, like,

oh, it's this and and, like, a kind of a straightforward answer, but the last

two interviews have, like, flipped it on me and been, like, well, I

don't think it's important or, like,

very short way to sum up what you just said, but, like, it's making me

think about, like, okay. Maybe I'm putting a little too

much emphasis on, like, the reason of being and maybe the

reason because what came up in the other interview was just, like, the journey, just

being here present and existing, and, like, the

bigger picture doesn't matter because maybe there is no bigger picture or,

it's almost like it's almost like an ego thing maybe,

of thinking, like, there has to be an important reason as to what I'm doing

now. Like, maybe there doesn't. Maybe it can just be because it's

enjoyment or, like, you're having fun with it or it's doing something for

somebody else. So it's interesting. I I've taken a break and then started

recording episodes and, like, the it's something for me to to

contemplate, I think. So I I appreciate that answer. Yeah. I hope you

never stop contemplating that question. Like, it's because it's not to say that

it doesn't mean anything. So there we go. Wash your hands. You're done. It's

it's to say that that it that's a deep, deep well of

contemplation. And, but I think that you said it too,

something about just, like, really being in in the right now,

in in in this moment. If if there is something that that

you do or some some emotion that you access that

brings that brings inner peace. And if you can and if you can share

that, translate that in some way, and I love the idea

of translating it through art. But if you can translate that in any way, communicate

that in any way so that it hits somebody else and it sparks that that

little inner peace in them, then that seems like some that

seems like maybe some kind of purpose. Yeah.

Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much for your time

and, you know, the conversation. It's been very thought

provoking for me, and, it yeah. I appreciate your time, and I appreciate you

spending it with us. And, you know, this has been great. And, and,

man, good luck on everything with the podcast, and, I hope you

talk to, so many other people who have who have really great

ideas and thought provoking subjects. Thank you. Thank you.

And, as always, I'll link all your stuff in the show notes so people can

get to your albums, and all the projects and stuff that you're working on. But,

yeah, I hope I hope the best to you for the new Intuit Over record

and your new solo record and your, your tour that

you posted about that we didn't get a chance to talk about, but I'll, I'll

link your Instagram and TikTok so people can find it. Sounds awesome.

Thank you for listening to Working Towards Our Purpose. If you liked today's

episode and are interested in more, you can sign up for my Substack

newsletter with the link in the show notes, where I share thoughts,

tips, and ideas that I'm learning along my journey to help inspire

you. The show was produced by Pleasant Podcast at pleasantpodcast.com.